4 Piston Racing new head program
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Thread: 4 Piston Racing new head program

  1. #1
    Super Mod's Pet RujoKinJal's Avatar
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    4 Piston Racing new head program

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  3. #2
    Platinum Member bfaided1984's Avatar
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    Good info. Thank you.
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  4. #3
    Greenhorn
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    I put down my deposit last week. Bought a used head off ebay with cams. It's extremely obvious that Honda really dropped the ball on this head design. No V-Tec on the exhaust, plus that cast-in exhaust has to be seriously detrimental to the scavenging effect on the cylinders. I imagine the port work will help free up the exhaust flow and improve performance a fair amount. Obviously a tune will be required, but I think those guys out there with higher flow intake manifolds will be the ones who net the most, at least on the N/A side of things.

    I'll try to remember to keep everyone updated as I go through this project.

    4 Piston Racing new head program-20190918_101938.jpg

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  6. #4
    Big Timer!!!
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    I saw this ad the other day at work. Def gets my attention.

  7. #5
    Platinum Member bfaided1984's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevlar View Post
    I put down my deposit last week. Bought a used head off ebay with cams. It's extremely obvious that Honda really dropped the ball on this head design. No V-Tec on the exhaust, plus that cast-in exhaust has to be seriously detrimental to the scavenging effect on the cylinders. I imagine the port work will help free up the exhaust flow and improve performance a fair amount. Obviously a tune will be required, but I think those guys out there with higher flow intake manifolds will be the ones who net the most, at least on the N/A side of things.

    I'll try to remember to keep everyone updated as I go through this project.

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    Keep us posted. Interested to see what kind of numbers this makes.
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  8. #6
    Greenhorn
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    I will provide more information as it becomes available.

    I aim to have the camshafts measured, the stock head flowed and supply factory valve spring information (installed height, seat pressure, open pressure and coil bind height). It likely will be closer to the end of the year before the heads have been ported etc.

    How much interest is there in performance camshafts for this engine? Has anyone taken time to set up a poll? Billet cams will likely come with a $1,000 to $1,200 price tag. I'd be willing to bet that with a head port, down pipe, cold air intake, cams and a tune, that some folks would be happy to jump on this path instead of going with a supercharger or turbocharger.

    This is how I see it - everyone who goes with a forced induction setup will start off with a cold air intake, down pipe and a tune. You're already in for ~$350 for the cold air intake, ~$350 for the down pipe, $700 for the flash pro plus tuning... That's $1,400 assuming you know how to tune it yourself.

    If you go with a turbo kit, you start at $3,400 (PRL non-intercooled). Realistically you're going to want an intercooler and the whole kit, so $4,300 for a turbo kit. + other parts and you're at $5,700 + tuning.

    Supercharger kits start at $3,500. Add that to your other bolt-ons and you're at $4,900 + tuning etc.

    Assuming you had the bolt-on parts and were previously tuned, you're going to start from scratch on the tuning, so double your tuning budget from your N/A build. Let's be generous and say you're all-in for $5,700 + Tuning (2x) for the turbo kit and $4,900 + tuning (2X) for the supercharger kit.

    Let's say you want to spend a bit less money, make some solid N/A power that will also translate into an even better performing car after you add boost. Head port $1,100, cams $1,200 + bolt-on's $1,400 (includes flash pro) + tuning (once plus re-work for cams/head) - $3,700 all-in. Keep in mind also that all of the modifications on this route, will mean even better results if you decide to go with a supercharger or a turbo down the road.

    I think there is a case to be made for the N/A route depending on the numbers from the head port and the cams. This route is for the guy who wants to do the head swap in a weekend without all the fuss of the K20 head swap, add some more fuel to their existing bolt-on's only tune, drive to the dyno for a re-flash on the new head port/cams.

    Maybe I'm just weird, but I like to explore the path less traveled occasionally while learning something along the way.

    What does everyone else think?

  9. #7
    Big Pimping!!! MeeSh's Avatar
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    Kevlar,

    A few companies have tried making cams for the k24z7. All of them failed to make any power.

    I don't understand why because I'm not an an engineer or understand motors that well, but many companies have tried to make cams. If you think you can do, by all means do it! I'd buy some if they made more power for my motor N/A. I love N/A Hondas. I'm eventually planning on getting the k20 head swap to stay N/A and reach 260+ whp.
    RujoKinJal likes this.
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  10. #8
    Big Timer!!! 9thgensifamily's Avatar
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    I'm interested in seeing how much power the head work makes. Years ago I had Isky regrind cams for me, as they didn't make cams for my particular engine. The regrind really helped. I didn't have any specs to give them, but they knew enough info to know what lift, duration, overlap to use, and gave me 2 options on this matter.
    I believe this is why stock heads get turbo/supercharged...and N/A builds get K20 head swaps. If your going to try a stock head N/A build, I'm rooting for you.
    MeeSh likes this.

  11. #9
    Big Timer!!! homegrown's Avatar
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    In my experience, it takes at least twice the money to make the same power naturally aspirated as you would if you went with forced induction.
    Take it as you will. I'm not wanting to discourage you, I just don't want you to be surprised.

  12. #10
    Greenhorn
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    Hey Guys,

    I'm working with an engineer here at work to try to get this stuff figured out.

    As he put it, "you've got the trifecta - dual overhead cams, solid tappet and VVT." Meaning that since the valvetrain is solid, there's no wiggle room on valve adjustment like there is for a hydraulic setup. Usually that's not a big deal, however with a dual overhead cam configuration, as soon as you cut into the factory cams, you cut into the base circle which in turn completely changes the entire valvetrain's geometry. This means that you're going to have to not only degree the cams in, but you're also going to have to adjust lash to suit. Again, this isn't usually a problem, but you're dealing with cams that are keyed/located off the cam gears in a specific way which also impacts how the camshaft position sensor registers all this. Again all cams do this, but since there is so little known about this engine and the limits on PTV etc it's a problem for us. In other words, if you regrind the stock cores and you want to daily this, you're going to want more than just a weekend to get it all squared away.

    You have to ensure that 50 degrees TDC in Hondata is in fact 50 degrees TDC at the engine itself etc etc etc. Again, standard stuff, but most of us daily these cars and since the knowledge base on the engine is so low, we can't just go off of common knowledge like you can with the LS or Coyote etc. You look at LS1 Tech, and most guys can tell you with certainty exactly what compression you'll get with a specific head casting (243 for example) with an LM7 bottom end will net you like 10.0:1 compression. That's not the type of environment we have here. I think we will get there, as these cars get older and more people keep them as secondary cars for hot-rodding etc, but as we stand now there is far less of a technical foundation than I think we could expect to see in the future. Personally.... I don't think we're that far off, it just takes some folks to take the plunge on a backup engine and tinker around a bit.

    The best bet here is to get billet or austempered ductile iron cores with un-ground lobes and then grind it so that you wind up with a factory base circle. Of course all of this is contingent on the amount of piston to valve clearance. While we do have timing chains and we generally don't have to worry about a timing belt breaking, we can't just throw more duration and lift at these camshafts without checking for PTV. Just off the top of my head, without doing any research, if we have issues with exhaust flow, increasing the exhaust duration a bit could be a good way to go - don't hold me to this. It's worth noting of course that increased exhaust duration can increase valve overlap which can decrease vacuum production and other ill effects - the saving grace being that we can change the position of the intake cam through the cam position table, AND that we can choose the V-Tec engagement point. Obviously with a head port, we may find that an increased exhaust duration relative to the intake may not even be necessary. Anyway, just throwing it out there. This is all rather uncharted territory for me. I come from classic Pontiac V8's and a daily driven bolt-on/tuned turbo volvo 6 speed.

    If anyone has a spare K24Z7 bottom end, that may be the best way to go to ensure no power is left on the table by going too conservative on the grind AND that we don't go too radical, resulting in a PTV collision.

    With that being said, it's alarming to me how many folks don't upgrade the valve springs when the put boost to these engines. Don't get me wrong, loads of people do it all the time with various engine platforms, but we've seen a lot of people pick up power on a turbo 5.3 with just swapping the springs to springs with more seat/open pressure and overall better harmonics. No tuning, no extra boost, just a better spring to control the valve.

    I hope to have the stock cams measured, and once I do, I'll post it here for everyone to read. I'll also check out the springs for their seat/open pressure (on vtec, primary and secondary for open) as well as the rate and the coil bind. The fact we don't know this stuff bothers me lol.

    If the admins will allow it, I'm happy to post a poll asking for input on camshaft interest. Even if you're boosted (supercharged or turbocharged), there is going to be power to be made with camshafts, period. Say what you will about the stock head etc, anytime you create a valvetrain environment that is more suited to the engine's needs, you're going to increase driveability and make more power.

    9thGenisfamily - what cams did they regrind for you?


    At the end of the day, we may put up a poll and have 100 people say they're interested, I'd bet 30 pull the trigger on them. Those 30 people need to make enough power to make the purchase justifiable and influence others. We'll see...

    Thanks for hearing me out guys, I'll try to have something by the end of the week. SEMA prep is ramping up, so engineering is busy. May or may not have anything, no promises lol.
    MeeSh likes this.

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