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Thread: coming soon: 2pc rotors

  1. #21
    One Bad Mama Jama!!!
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    I don't understand when people refer to drive train loss in percentage. let's say my car is all stock and i have 200hp. so with your rule of thumb, drive train loss is 40 hp.
    Let's now add some power to it on the same exact car with the same drive train and now has 400 hp. So I doubled the power to the car and all the sudden that same drive train that took 40hp before now some how takes 80hp? (400 x 20%)

    It's more of a fixed value imo and not a percentage.

    Now you can argue that it can take more power to turn the drive train because higher hp cars will create more heat compared to a lower hp car but I'm sure even if that is accounted for, it shouldn't take double the original amount.

    Now, I do agree with you about loss in rotational mass will show an increase in hp on a dyno. What your effectively doing is not really MAKING more power but REDUCING the amount of drive train loss that the car sees due to the lower weight of the rotating masses.
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  3. #22
    Platinum Member team3d's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by boosted180sx View Post
    I don't understand when people refer to drive train loss in percentage. let's say my car is all stock and i have 200hp. so with your rule of thumb, drive train loss is 40 hp.
    Let's now add some power to it on the same exact car with the same drive train and now has 400 hp. So I doubled the power to the car and all the sudden that same drive train that took 40hp before now some how takes 80hp? (400 x 20%)

    It's more of a fixed value imo and not a percentage.

    Now you can argue that it can take more power to turn the drive train because higher hp cars will create more heat compared to a lower hp car but I'm sure even if that is accounted for, it shouldn't take double the original amount.

    Now, I do agree with you about loss in rotational mass will show an increase in hp on a dyno. What your effectively doing is not really MAKING more power but REDUCING the amount of drive train loss that the car sees due to the lower weight of the rotating masses.

    it is why the most ideal to know how much drivetrain loss is chassis dyno. with the actual #, you will know how much % is loss...


    here is a good article about drivetrain loss by super street... link: Drivetrain Power Loss - The 15% "Rule"- Modified Magazine

    another one by hot rod: http://www.hotrod.com/articles/ccrp-...in-power-loss/

    "What your effectively doing is not really MAKING more power but REDUCING the amount of drive train loss that the car sees due to the lower weight of the rotating masses"

    absolutely correct... parts like tires, wheels, rotors, axles, flywheels, clutch, transmission, are all part of the rotating mass that cause drivetrain loss.

    Last edited by team3d; 06-25-2017 at 11:12 AM.

  4. #23
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    Dyno results will only take into account drive train components, not the weight of the car. Out on the road or track the weight of the car will come into play.

    Power at the flywheel, disconnected fro the drivetrain, is a different story, again. That's the most that will be registered.

    Just some basic stuff to keep in mind.
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  6. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by team3d View Post
    it is why the most ideal to know how much drivetrain loss is chassis dyno. with the actual #, you will know how much % is loss...
    but my question is why would it be registered into a %. It should be a flat value.
    Let's say you dyno a 9th gen SI and it registered 160whp. That would be a loss of 45 hp which is 45/205 = 21.9%, or the car makes 78.1% of crank hp.

    Now we force induction the same car and we make 400whp. So if it follows a % formula like above, the car has a 21.9% drive train loss so it should have 400/0.781 = 512.16 crank hp which means, the loss is 112 hp
    the SAME exact drive train now some how takes 112hp instead of 45 because I added boost to the car? No matter how much hp you have the drive train loss for the 9th gen SI should be valued at a FLAT 45 hp or close to it instead of a 21.9% value. Why would the car all the sudden take 70 more hp to turn the same exact drive train because you add more power.
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  7. #25
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    ^did you read the link team3d posted? It was very informative IMO. Brings up the issue of cooling for me, since part of drive train loss is directly related to heat. I was thinking of the benefits of an oil cooler and/or a transmission cooler. I wonder what % if any would increased cooling help the engine function better in terms of physical numbers. Interesting topic.
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  8. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by turkeyfeast123 View Post
    ^did you read the link team3d posted? It was very informative IMO. Brings up the issue of cooling for me, since part of drive train loss is directly related to heat. I was thinking of the benefits of an oil cooler and/or a transmission cooler. I wonder what % if any would increased cooling help the engine function better in terms of physical numbers. Interesting topic.
    Yes I actually have already read the modified magazine article before he posted it. They are just another google link that anyone can search. I am only asking him because I don't believe you can follow his 20% fwd drive train loss "rule of thumb" because it would be imo a lot closer to a FIXED value over a PERCENTAGE value. Which is why I asked how he came up with a percentage value.

    I even mentioned about the "heat" issue with more hp before that link was posted in the post above.
    Quote Originally Posted by boosted180sx View Post
    Now you can argue that it can take more power to turn the drive train because higher hp cars will create more heat compared to a lower hp car but I'm sure even if that is accounted for, it shouldn't take double the original amount.
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  9. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by boosted180sx View Post
    Yes I actually have already read the modified magazine article before he posted it. They are just another google link that anyone can search. I am only asking him because I don't believe you can follow his 20% fwd drive train loss "rule of thumb" because it would be imo a lot closer to a FIXED value over a PERCENTAGE value. Which is why I asked how he came up with a percentage value.

    I even mentioned about the "heat" issue with more hp before that link was posted in the post above.
    the drivetrain loss % average are studied & published by SAE. the fwd 20% average rules are years of data collected from various chassis dyno results from bone stock fwd honda dyno on chassis dyno.

    it's why within honda community, from all the data we have seen for almost 20yrs, the average is around 20%. ofcourse, we all know elevation & air density plays a big role on chassis dyno... it's why we need to know the date & the location of the dyno it perform to understand if there is any advantage was being utilized..

    example: church dyno.. everyone likes to bash church's high dyno #, there is a reason why church's # are much higher than other socal dyno.

    #1 church use dynapack, dynapack is not a chassis dyno, it's a hub dyno, when you remove the friction & the wheels/tires weight out of the equation, the reading will be higher than chassis dyno which factor in tire frictions & wheels/tires weight.

    #2 Torrance is at near sea level, dyno # read the highest when it's near sea level.

    #3, Torrance is near the beach, Torrance have much cooler temperature than in the valley/san gabriel valley/inland empire. thus when dyno cars at colder temperture gives you a better advantage to have higher dyno reading


    if chruch move to our region, even with dynapack, when you dyno a car at 100f and hotter and at a 500~1400 above elevation ? the # will read much lower...

    example, stock r18 automatic is 140hp, when AFE dyno inno's FG3 in 2012, it was 104whp on a mustang dyno in socal, the 20% rule will be 112, his civic actually had a drivetrain loss of little over 25% due to his transmission.

    dyno link: https://www.9thgencivic.com/forum/ecu...lts-chart.html
    Last edited by team3d; 06-26-2017 at 05:45 PM.

  10. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by boosted180sx View Post
    Yes I actually have already read the modified magazine article before he posted it. They are just another google link that anyone can search. I am only asking him because I don't believe you can follow his 20% fwd drive train loss "rule of thumb" because it would be imo a lot closer to a FIXED value over a PERCENTAGE value. Which is why I asked how he came up with a percentage value.

    I even mentioned about the "heat" issue with more hp before that link was posted in the post above.
    Nothing in engines can ever be fixed. Not unless every single engine was created the same, and even then, you have to take into account all of the environmental factors, which would give you certain readings at certain times of the day, weather temp, humidity etc, that's SEVERAL hundreds of factors when it comes down to it.

    Not all Civics and Si's for that matter were created the same anyway, so for me, despite how Honda data for the past 20 years or so showed certain percentages, that number doesn't even matter, with new engines come new variables.

    It will never be a fixed number and likely it would never be a simple rule of thumb. I think having a general idea of how much drive train loss would be a good thing to have, just for self-reference sake, but in all honesty there are hundreds of calculations you would have to do to even start comprehending the actual loss number.

    Think about it from a transmission perspective only. All civics have different types of transmissions, some 6 speeds, some 5 speeds, and earlier models at 4 speeds (correct me if I'm wrong on that). All transmissions don't have the exact same gear ratios either, meaning different gear sizing, number of teeth, the physical transmission case, the other rotating parts like the bearings, all of that plays a role and all of that is completely variable.

    Doing a test with new engine oil vs older engine oil is a perfect example of how a simple variable can cause different dyno reads.

    If it were a fixed number than we wouldn't have all of the jobs, careers, scientific studies etc around this very topic. It would be a simple calculation and engineering as we know it would seem like working at walmart. However, that's simply not the case.

    I was just reading today about the benefits or supposed benefits of fuel coolers, which in theory sound good, just like transmission cooling and oil cooling, they all sound good and smart and worth while, but it's hard to find good scientific data from forums just like on this one. You gotta be in the field. You gotta be behind the scenes, at the desk where the calculations are done for each physical part and then all of those figures are put into a much larger equation. Then theory comes into play because as much as we believe we know about shit, like scientists and the sort, we really don't know why certain things happen the way that they do. There is no certainty in science, because science is never fixed or permanent, it is and will always stay, a process.
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  11. #29
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    What do buddy club rotors weigh? is there a big difference between these 2pc rotor weight and the buddy club BBK rotor weight?
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  12. #30
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