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Discussion Starter #1
Long story short, I installed the OEM Honda Remote Start system into my 2012 Civic Si Sedan; the parts descriptions and compatibility listings online stated the items were compatible (and specifically said 6spd manuals transmission). Anyhow, now that I have purchased, installed, and had the fobs programmed, I learned that the system is not actually compatible with my car. I am asking for some help on figuring out why it won't work and what I can do to make it work as I would prefer not to pull it out and start all over and spend even more money. All in all, the OEM setup is fairly easy and simple to install; going to an aftermarket unit would probably be quicker to get a remote starter in the car but would also be much more work to cut and splice everything; I'd rather make this unit work if possible. Prior to posting, I did search the forum and read several threads on this topic; but, I wasn't able to find anything similar (if I missed the right thread, my apologies).

Ok, if you're willing to read more, here are the details; I know there is a lot here so I appreciate anyone taking the time to read this and lend some advice. I purchased the following items about a month ago as they were listed as compatible with my car:
08E91-E22-101A Remote Start Kit (known as the brain)
08E92-TR0-100 Remote Start Attachment (the harness that will attach the brain to the car)
(Optional) 08E91-E22-1M001 Remote Start Transmitter (the kit comes with one, but I wanted a second one for the second master key).

About 2 weeks ago, I spent about a day installing it using the Honda directions; everything went smooth with the exception of the bracket for the Remote Start Control Module. I had to modify the bracket and an interior trim piece to make room for and to mount the module as it was trying to occupy the same space as the clutch pedal assembly. In hindsight, this should have been my first indicator that there was a problem; however, that was the only issue I encountered throughout the install.

Earlier this week, I took the car to my local Honda dealer in order to have the fobs programmed to the car and complete the installation; when everything was done, the service writer told me that they couldn't get the system to work as there was no provision in HDS to allow for a clutch bypass and that the system was not compatible with my car because of the manual transmission. Regardless of what I
explained about the parts being direct from Honda and being listed as compatible, there was nothing they could do. I figured this was no big deal, I would just wire the clutch safety switch to the ebrake and call it done.

Well, before jumping into the cutting and the splicing and what not, I decided to test my theory. So, I locked myself in the car, held down the clutch (simulating it being bypassed), and attempted to start the car remotely; it did not work. I could hear at least one of the 3 solenoids click but afterwards the system just beeps at me and there was no actual attempt to start the engine (the starter was never triggered). So, the question I have is, why? Why won't the factory remote starter attempt to start the car? What is missing from the equation to trigger the starter?

I have gone over the schematics for the system and I have a few ideas; however, before I go testing different leads (like the Shift Lock Solenoid on Pins 3 and 4 (Page 21-4) of the Remote Start Control Unit), I want to eliminate the immobilizer from the list of possible suspects
(or, be able to know it is the actual reason and what can be done to change that signal to make it work). I don't know enough about nor do I have HDS to play with the software in order to test what the immobilizer is doing/not doing as I'm worried that the immobilizer may be an issue; but, I thought that was the reason for bringing it to Honda, to program the fob to the car which syncs it to the immobilizer (or, so I thought). If the issue is the immobilizer preventing the car from starting, I basically can't do anything about it, can I? I know part of the issue is that I don't truly understand what the immobilizer is sending to the ECU or Remote Start Control Unit (it definitely talks to both) when it gets a good or bad signal to keep the car running. What about the MICU, what is it sending to the Remote Start Control Unit on Pins 20 & 21 (Page 21-6)?

Page 21 - Normal starting circuit:
IMG_3154.jpg

Page 21-1 - Page 1 of Remote Start:
IMG_3155.jpg

Page 21-2 - Page 2 of Remote Start:
IMG_3156.jpg

Page 21-3 - Page 3 of Remote Start:
IMG_3157.jpg

Page 21-4 - Page 4 of Remote Start:
IMG_3158.jpg

Page 21-5 - Page 5 of Remote Start:
IMG_3159.jpg

Page 21-6 - Page 6 of Remote Start:
IMG_3160.jpg

Page 21-7 - Page 7 of Remote Start, the Rules for the system to operate:
IMG_3161.jpg

If you've read this far, thank you in advance for your time.
 

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I got clickbaited into your "Long story short" but, like a trainwreck, I couldn't look away and had to keep reading. Firstly, if you had to purchase a bunch of parts that were compatible with your 2012 Si, that should have been your first red flag. And the fact that you could probably not find any information on any of the internets of someone having previously done it.

That having been said, you are probably smarter and/or more mechanically-inclined than me, so I'll stop giving you crap because I would have researched it and then just given up. I don't know much about remote start systems, but I do know that in Civics of yore, the issue was the clutch and it needing to be bypassed. Like you tried, one used to be able to bypass the problem by grounding the system into the e-brake, or installing some sort of weird floating magnetic puck somewhere under the shifter or something that would recognize when the car is in neutral and only start then. Again, I don't really know a lot about it, but that's what I remember a guy telling me back in like 1998 about his late-1990s Civic and how he got around that problem.

Now, fast-forward 15 years and our Civics have the immobilizer system in it and a bunch of other technology the earlier Civics didn't. I think you're on the right track with your train of thought, I just can't help you but hopefully someone else around here will be able to.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
You make a valid point; however, while I didn't really see much for information and the parts were listed as compatible, I figured that no one was really talking about it because it was pretty basic stuff. A factory dealer option that plugs into the car just like anything else; not really a story to tell there. I did find a few threads stating that they had their dealer install a remote starter in the car; unfortunately, I made the assumption that they were talking about a factory unit (which was never clearly stated or discussed). But, you're right, a bit more research and I probably could have saved myself some headache and frustration. Anyhow, thanks for reading/responding; even if I did have to suck you in like a bad newspaper article (I did leave some details out trying to keep this as short as possible while still posting all relevant information needed).

What I've learned about the immobilizer recently is that it should not stop the car from starting; the car should start when all appropriate signals are received. However, shortly thereafter, when the immobilizer does not detect the key or whatnot, it cuts voltage to the fuel pump, turning off the engine and preventing the car from driving. Therefore, in theory, this is not my reason for failed remote starting; so, I'm a bit back to the drawing board.
 

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Just for kicks I went to the Honda website and tried to add a remote start to a new car build. Only way i was offered the option was to choose one with an auto trans. My feeling is where you saw the parts as compatible the page was incorrect. A little late I know but at least you know why it doesn't work.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Yes, that is exactly the problem; the database was incorrect. When I spoke to College Hills Honda about it (after the fact), they acknowledged the page was wrong and would work to have it fixed.
 

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Are you sure that is how the immobilizer works? I would think that it would disallow any power if the immobilizer was immobilized, as opposed to allowing the car to start then running through a few checks before cutting the fuel pump and power to the engine.
 

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Discussion Starter #7 (Edited)
No, I'm not completely sure.

I'm basing my statement on what I ready in the manual on system description and from what was discussed with others. The issue could very well be the immobilizer; however, I am trying to work with it in order to make this determination.

According to Honda, the remote start can only be fitted to LX & EX models with automatic transmissions (not DX or Si). The LX has immobilizer type 3 (software build to my understanding) where as the EX and Si models have immobilizer type 4 (based on other readings and discussions); therefore, it should be possible to make the system work (again, in theory). Not sure on the difference with the immobilizer software builds and why the DX is different; however, my thought is that if the immobilizer is made to work, the clutch safety can be routed to ensure it is safe (e-brake and neutral detect in series; but, I have to get the system working as is with the a clutch bypass first) and then the system will work as designed.

I guess I need to find a way to get my hands on HDS in order to try and play with the system; any ideas on that one? Google searching shows a lot of websites that list it as downloadable; however, lots of unknown and questionable websites so I would prefer a reliable source with a semi-recent version of the software if at all possible.
 

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First thing I would check if you have a +12v signal on the starter wire(heavy gauge YELLOW) at the white plug inside the steering column. This would tell you if it is the remote starter that fails or the starting circuit at the car side(ex: immobilizer).
Also, the remote starter should be programmed somehow to learn the chip inside your OEM key in order to simulate its frequecy on the can bus each time you send a remote start signal with the remote control. There might be instructions somewhere on how to do that. Another test could be to sit in the car and holding the clutch pedal down just like you did PLUS keep your key very close to the ingnition barrel.

And of course a bypass for the clutch should exist especially if the remote starter is designed for an automatic tranny. This is quite easy to do with a relay. The orange wire at the clutch plunger switch should see ground while cranking.

According to all requirements there for the RS to work, the Park wire should also see ground.... I understand it could be difficult to find witch one it is in the harness.

Let me know !
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Hell of an introductory post; but, I appreciate the time to drop a line.

The car starts and drives without issue using the key as per normal; so, there are no issues with the starting circuit; therefore, it is the remote starter that is not sending the signal to actually trigger the starter without the key. My thought process now is that it is the immobilizer not initiating something but I haven't been able to narrow down as to why. I've looked over the pinout on every plug in the system and other than the A/T wires I haven't been able to find anything different between the LX/EX and the Si model on those particular plugs; although I could be missing something. Again, even with the system installed, the car operates as it did before the installation.

If you read my first post, you'll see where I had the system programmed by the Dealer using HDS; the procedure is in the installation instructions, I brought them with me when I had the FOBs programmed to the car. Also, I previously stated the simulated clutch bypass didn't work (me inside the car by holding the clutch down); I did later attempt to start the car with the keys outside the car by barring the clutch pedal down; it also didn't work (here is a video of that test):

So, I am still trying to figure out why it isn't working. Once I get the system working, I will conduct the clutch bypass; I like the idea of a relay but ultimately feel as though it would be unsafe as it doesn't sense the car being in neutral with the ebrake set (so, in theory, I could start the car in gear with the brake off with just a relay to bypass the clutch). So, my plan was to wire the ebrake switch and a neutral detect switch in series with each other and in parallel to the clutch safety switch. That way, the car will have to have either the clutch depressed or the ebrake set and be in neutral to attempt to start the car. Although, I'm not there yet with that plan since the car isn't triggering the starter.

If you look in the schematic for the normal ignition circuit, you'll see that the clutch safety switch is the same wire as the Park/Neutral detect for an automatic car; so, I don't think that is an issue especially considering I don't think the start relay is firing as it isn't getting the signal from the Remote Start Module. I haven't had a chance to check the voltages here to verify the signals to the relay but since the car doesn't attempt to start I am pretty sure this is the case. Without that signal being sent to the relay, the Park/Neutral detect (or clutch bypass in my case) is a moot point as the ignition signal is never sent to this portion of the circuit.
 

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One reason you can't get the OEM remote start to work is "it" was never (that I am aware of) designed to work with a manual transmission.
The Si has an ECM (which does not include a/t control) and as such does not have a "Park" position input.
Further with the CAN systems in the 12 & later Civics, there are multiple control units that must communicate with each other to make the car function.

I'm not sure what kind of data these "tuner guys" can see and manipulate; but there may be a work around. I would contact Hondata.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Yeah, in hindsight, I learned that the system wasn't compatible with the Si despite what it said online at the time of purchase. I'm just not ready to give up on the system yet as I'd really like to get it to work.

The ECM not having a park input is irrelevant from what I can see in the schematics; it is after the start signal is sent to trigger the ignition (so, if it isn't in park, it won't start - Page 21-1). The only other transmission related thing I see that could be an issue is that there is no shift lock solenoid (Page 21-4); however, the Remote Start Module is supposed to open the internal solenoid to stop that signal to the ECM, since it isn't there, there is no signal to block so I wouldn't think that would be a problem (but, that is just me reading the schematics, there may be something bigger here I'm not seeing). Ultimately, I think I need to verify the correct inputs to the immobilizer and to the Remote Start Module and then go from there. I just have a few other projects ahead of this one right now although since it is starting to get cold, I'm really starting to want Remote Start.

In the meantime, I bought a Teradyne GDS2200 running HDS version 2.027.003 which is scheduled to arrive today; I'm hoping to be able to use this to track what signals the Remote Start Module is not getting and then track them down to try and fix the issue. The only problem I'll have is if I need access to the Immobilizer since I don't have a Honda Service Express account (nor the credentials needed) to get the daily Immobilizer access code (as I'm just a DIY guy, no business license or anything like that). Know any easy way to get the code? I've seen a few things online outlining how to do it but it was a bit too in depth (without any explanations) for my understanding at the moment?
 

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Yeah, in hindsight, I learned that the system wasn't compatible with the Si despite what it said online at the time of purchase. I'm just not ready to give up on the system yet as I'd really like to get it to work.

The ECM not having a park input is irrelevant from what I can see in the schematics; it is after the start signal is sent to trigger the ignition (so, if it isn't in park, it won't start - Page 21-1). The only other transmission related thing I see that could be an issue is that there is no shift lock solenoid (Page 21-4); however, the Remote Start Module is supposed to open the internal solenoid to stop that signal to the ECM, since it isn't there, there is no signal to block so I wouldn't think that would be a problem (but, that is just me reading the schematics, there may be something bigger here I'm not seeing). Ultimately, I think I need to verify the correct inputs to the immobilizer and to the Remote Start Module and then go from there. I just have a few other projects ahead of this one right now although since it is starting to get cold, I'm really starting to want Remote Start.

In the meantime, I bought a Teradyne GDS2200 running HDS version 2.027.003 which is scheduled to arrive today; I'm hoping to be able to use this to track what signals the Remote Start Module is not getting and then track them down to try and fix the issue. The only problem I'll have is if I need access to the Immobilizer since I don't have a Honda Service Express account (nor the credentials needed) to get the daily Immobilizer access code (as I'm just a DIY guy, no business license or anything like that).
Know any easy way to get the code?

I've seen a few things online outlining how to do it but it was a bit too in depth (without any explanations) for my understanding at the moment?
Other than having a friend at a dealer, no.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Did you get the scan tool?
Does it communicate with your car?
I did, and it starts up and works fine; however, it is stuck in standalone mode which means that it will only access historic records. If I try and add a new vehicle, it says it is locked out. I called Honda Service Express line and they suggested connecting it to the internet; I tried that; but, it fails its own network tests. So, basically, either I don't know enough about it to make it work or it doesn't work. Not sure which way to go with it to be honest. So, I'm going to start looking at other options while I figure out what to do with this giant paperweight.
 

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Because there is a lack of documentation on these R/S and obviously you need to tweak the systeme to make it works I would take the approach of selling it to someone who has an A/T and get a Viper for your car. I just installed one myself last week and works perfectly I have a 2012 LX M/T. A Si is basically the same wiring and as a bonus you'll get a mile range from the remote control. I installed a Viper 4806V with an ADS-ALCA as an immobilizer bypass. I have all the documents needed for the installation... If in case you take this route.

What I dont like from your setup is the fact that even if you get it to work... It will be possible to remote start the car while in gear. A viper 4806v will prevent you to do this.

Good luck.
 

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I did, and it starts up and works fine; however, it is stuck in standalone mode which means that it will only access historic records. If I try and add a new vehicle, it says it is locked out. I called Honda Service Express line and they suggested connecting it to the internet; I tried that; but, it fails its own network tests. So, basically, either I don't know enough about it to make it work or it doesn't work. Not sure which way to go with it to be honest. So, I'm going to start looking at other options while I figure out what to do with this giant paperweight.
I'm afraid it gets worse...

Capture.JPG

Try calling the number below.
Capture.JPG

We're veering off course now, but can you return the scan tool to the seller?


Best advice from pomerlo.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
What I dont like from your setup is the fact that even if you get it to work... It will be possible to remote start the car while in gear.
While, at face value, that may be true but if I set the system up how I want (outlined in a previous post), if I can get the system working, that will not be the case.

What I don't like about many of the aftermarket units is the 4 step process when you get out of the car in order to set it to work. If I can avoid that, I'd be a bit happier.



I'm afraid it gets worse...

View attachment 475777

Try calling the number below.
View attachment 475775

We're veering off course now, but can you return the scan tool to the seller?


Best advice from pomerlo.
Even if the GDS2200 did get unlocked, I don't think it can run the newer HDS software version as it is effectively a stripped out Windows XP tablet. I don't think it meets the minimum hardware requirements needed to run something newer than the 2.027.003 version on it. But, information is somewhat hard to come by so I cannot say for certain what it can and cannot do. None the less, I am working with the seller to try and return it; he said he would send me a return label but hasn't done so yet.
 

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While, at face value, that may be true but if I set the system up how I want (outlined in a previous post), if I can get the system working, that will not be the case.

What I don't like about many of the aftermarket units is the 4 step process when you get out of the car in order to set it to work. If I can avoid that, I'd be a bit happier.





Even if the GDS2200 did get unlocked, I don't think it can run the newer HDS software version as it is effectively a stripped out Windows XP tablet. I don't think it meets the minimum hardware requirements needed to run something newer than the 2.027.003 version on it. But, information is somewhat hard to come by so I cannot say for certain what it can and cannot do. None the less,
I am working with the seller to try and return it; he said he would send me a return label but hasn't done so yet.
:2thumbsup: Hopefully the seller will do the right thing.

I'd still try Hondata. Someone there should be able to tell you if the OEM remote start can be made to work on your car or not
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Teeps, I appreciate the suggestion. I know you mentioned them before; I'll reach out to them and see what they say. And, if it won't work, I hope they can provide a reason that makes sense.
 
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