9th Gen Civic Forum banner

1 - 20 of 22 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
56 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
I have been playing around in FP Manager since getting my flash pro a couple weeks ago. I recorded a couple 3rd gear WOT datalogs to play around with in FP Manager to try to familiarize myself with the software. Im running the reflash tune for now until I throw on a few more bolt-ons. Am probably planning on doing a dyno/etune in the future. I imagine that the way the reflash tune has the ignition and cam angles set is probably not bad...? So I have been looking at the fuel tables with the AF ratios and want to try to adjust my AF ratios. Now are these tables only used for adjusting fuel at wide open throttle (WOT Lamda Adjustment)? At 3rd gear wide open throttle looks like this...
low cam.png
Running rich as expected from a generic Reflash tune. The suggested change tabe looks like this...
low cam change.png
Now if im understanding this correctly all of the fuel should be adjusted to try to accomplish the 12.46 AF ratio from the "normal table values"? Is this what the k24z7 likes at WOT?
normal low.png

Here are the corresponding tables for the high cam also:
high cam change.png high cam.png normal high.png

I really haven't found much information as far as actual tuning with FP Manager. Most of the info I have found relates to setting up the hardware and software, but not much instruction on actually tuning. Am I crazy for wanting to figure our how to tune with this software? Or just stick with a dyno/etune like everybody else? But then where did these guys learn!?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,352 Posts
Adjusting the lambda tables will not do anything because in order to properly tune your ratios right you will need to adjust high fuel tables, low fuel tables, ignition tables, cam angles for both high and low cam, knock tables and so on and whem done right it would be done in small increments so you wont seriously screw the engine up but you have the right idea to get tuning done by someone that knows how to. It takes alot of know how to mess with this stuff and if you dont got it dont do it, but if you want to learn take it to a reputable tuner in your area and get it tuned and have someone show you how its done, the best way to learn is from someone that knows how to do it and can take you through it with ya

Sent from AutoGuide.com Free App
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
908 Posts
The lambda tables work just fine. Just don't enrichen more than 12.50 afr.

FYI if it says you need to take away 10% fuel you actually need to add 10% fuel to fix it.

aka if the afr is 12.46:1 and your afr is 12.3:1, to get to 13:1 you need to adjust by +5.6%

so you'd SUBTRACT 5.6% from 12.46 in order to get the leaning out you want.

12.46 * .944 = 11.76

That would be what you would set the lambda to in order to lean out to what you want it to be.

It sounds ass backwards but it's correct.

Also THIS TAKES INTO ACCOUNT THAT YOUR MASS AIRFLOW CURVE IS CORRECT ALREADY. IF it's not you will get UNINTENDED afr fluctuations. Hondata help has instructions on how to resolve yoru afr curve from datalogs. It works the same for wide open throttle as it does for partial throttle when you're talking about tuning the curve.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
56 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
I have tried running the reflash tune with both the stock air box and my short ram intake. It pulls harder up top and wot with the short ram intake installed (open Loop) but much less mid-range torque and responsiveness (closed loop). The stock airbox is the opposite, more torque and responsiveness in the mid range (closed loop) but not as much power up top and a wot (open loop). Soo I have had the short ram intake on and off a few times trying to decide which is better, but what would probably be the best is to tune the AFM curve with intake on because obviously I would rather run that than the stock airbox? Only other thing I have installed is a Q300 cat back. Would it be safe to say that tuning the AFM cure would be step 1 in the tuning process when running an aftermarket intake? That way I would still be running the "safe" reflash tune for now but it would function better with the AFM curve tuned to the intake.
FlashPro Help
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
908 Posts
If you want to run afm and not map, then yes tuning the afm curve is step numero uno in that process.

You can tell how bad your maf curve is by looking at your ltrim and strim values. ltrim with a perfect curve should be +/-2 , and shouldn't vary more than +/-5 day to day in different weather conditions
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
56 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
When starting a new calibration it doesn't give you the choice of afm or map based tunes like it did on the 8th civics. I read on the Hondata forums that it's because the 8th uses a combination of both. When looking through fp manager I could only access the high and low wot lambda tables which only shows afr and the target lambda. Only way I could get the high and low fuel tables was to click "show advanced parameters" under options and then go into calibration tab and click the map button at the bottom ( map tracing mabe? don't have it in front of me) other than that it I couldn't find a way to even adjust fuel.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
908 Posts
it's the "use map fueling" button

Calibration -> fuel -> "Fuel Table Type": check off "use MAP fuel tables" button and then you'll need to tune the fuel.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
53 Posts
The lambda tables work just fine. Just don't enrichen more than 12.50 afr.

FYI if it says you need to take away 10% fuel you actually need to add 10% fuel to fix it.

aka if the afr is 12.46:1 and your afr is 12.3:1, to get to 13:1 you need to adjust by +5.6%

so you'd SUBTRACT 5.6% from 12.46 in order to get the leaning out you want.

12.46 * .944 = 11.76

That would be what you would set the lambda to in order to lean out to what you want it to be.

It sounds ass backwards but it's correct.

Also THIS TAKES INTO ACCOUNT THAT YOUR MASS AIRFLOW CURVE IS CORRECT ALREADY. IF it's not you will get UNINTENDED afr fluctuations. Hondata help has instructions on how to resolve yoru afr curve from datalogs. It works the same for wide open throttle as it does for partial throttle when you're talking about tuning the curve.
So tuning AFM Wide Open Throttle is somewhat similar to tuning a map table in that an adjustment is needed for each rpm and MAP column? I've tuned MAP based lots with KPro but never MAF. I want to do it just so I can learn how. It would appear my closed loop looks decent but WOT is super rich. 10.5:1 - 11.x:1 AFR.

If I understand correctly, at 11.3:1 I would need to adjust by 13%. So would that end up being 10.85 AFR in the lambda tables?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
118 Posts
DO NOT use any information in this thread thus far. I cannot help you right now, but thought I'd help real quick by saying STOP lol. If someone else hasn't helped the next time Im online, I can help then
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
56 Posts
Discussion Starter #10
Read the tuning guide on Flashpro help. FlashPro Help Your first step is to tune the AFM Flow table so that your Mean Short term fuel trims are within 1%. The computer will then (in closed loop) calculate the fuel needed to achieve a stoich air fuel ratio (14.7:1) based on the amout of air in (g/s) passing the MAF sensor. After looking at some of my datalogs I was running good in closed loop, but in open loop WOT I was running much richer than the commanded 12.46:1 AFR. What I found was that in tuning the AFM flow values in closed loop your dealing with between 1v-3.4v from the MAF sensor. BUT In open loop WOT the voltage was between 3.1v-3.9v. You have to adjust your AFM Flow values in the upper range so that you are achieving the commanded air fuel ratio. Adding more volume of air (g/s on your AFM Flow table) will command more fuel, Decreasing the volume of air will do the opposite and will command less fuel leaning your your actual AFR. Your goal in open loop is for your actual air fuel ratios to be the same as the commanded ratios in the lambda tables. Then and only then should you adjust the commanded lambda values to achieve the most power.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
908 Posts
DO NOT use any information in this thread thus far. I cannot help you right now, but thought I'd help real quick by saying STOP lol. If someone else hasn't helped the next time Im online, I can help then
Oh master, please enlighten us. What i said is exactly correct, you're also arguing against the hondata help file itself if you're saying this is incorrect.

The one important thing is you cannot and should not increase the WOT area lambda values higher than the closed loop areas.

If you've already adjusted your AFM curve to read properly (youv'e used the xy graph to tune the g/s accordingly at each specific voltage) then you have nothing to worry about as long as you adjust everything as i've said and don't increase past the limits.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
908 Posts
Read the tuning guide on Flashpro help. FlashPro Help Your first step is to tune the AFM Flow table so that your Mean Short term fuel trims are within 1%. The computer will then (in closed loop) calculate the fuel needed to achieve a stoich air fuel ratio (14.7:1) based on the amout of air in (g/s) passing the MAF sensor. After looking at some of my datalogs I was running good in closed loop, but in open loop WOT I was running much richer than the commanded 12.46:1 AFR. What I found was that in tuning the AFM flow values in closed loop your dealing with between 1v-3.4v from the MAF sensor. BUT In open loop WOT the voltage was between 3.1v-3.9v. You have to adjust your AFM Flow values in the upper range so that you are achieving the commanded air fuel ratio. Adding more volume of air (g/s on your AFM Flow table) will command more fuel, Decreasing the volume of air will do the opposite and will command less fuel leaning your your actual AFR. Your goal in open loop is for your actual air fuel ratios to be the same as the commanded ratios in the lambda tables. Then and only then should you adjust the commanded lambda values to achieve the most power.
tl;dr: graph afm voltage vs a/f corrected, and adjust the afm curve by the percentage the lambda values are off your commanded amount.

So if you're commanding 12.47 and you're getting 14:1 @ 3.5 volts, then you need to adjust that area by +11%

So if the g/s at 3.5 volts was, say, 140 then it should be 156'ish

For closed loop you graph AFM.v on x and STRIM on y and then adjust your AFM curve at those voltages based on the strim values at each 1/10th of a volt.

All my information is perfectly fine. As i've said already, if you haven't adjusted your afm curve properly then you should do that first, that's always the first step with afm cars.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
53 Posts
Ok, so I was on the right track but when I graphed the ratios and made the adjustments it didn't seem to work as expected. I then noticed that in the 2013 ILX AFM Calibration, the AFM Flow Voltage maxes out at 2.56v. When I do a datalog the AFM.v graph has entries well past that around the 3.7v range.

I compared the 2012 Civic calibrations to the ILX calibrations and the AFM Flow Voltage tables are half the values of he 2012 civic calibrations, thus causing the table to run out of room an stop at 2.56v.

I posted this on the Honata forum and they advised a software engineer is looking at it.

Hondata • View topic - AFM Flow Voltage
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
56 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
At first I was thinking you weren't seeing the slider under the AFM flow values, and it was hidden behind your xy graph and couldn't see it... You have an ILX? When I try to open a new ILX calibration I see what your talking about "voltage" is spelled wrong when in the ILX calibration where it is not under a civic calibration. But also the ILX voltage indexes top out at 2.56 volts.
afm flow ilx.png
Im not sure if you can run a Civic Calibration on an ILX...? Wonder if the ILX would let you upload a Civic Calibration.In either case Civic or ILX the AFM Flow tables have 64 columns, the voltages indexes are just different. This is how you fix it! Start a new 2012+ CIVIC stock equivelant Calibration. Save it somewhere. Then go back into your ILX calibration and open up the AFM Flow table. Right click on the table and then click on "Import from Calibration" Find the 2012+ CIVIC stock equivelant Calibration you saved. It will then ask you "This calibraton is a different ECU type. Do you still wish to import this tabe?" Click YES. Then it says "Load Table Index as well?" And click YES! You will then have the Index voltages and flow from the civic calibration and you can tune them from there.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
53 Posts
Hey, thanks! That worked perfect. Hondata also indicated they have fixed this in the next release.

Also, the Civic calibrations will not work on the ILX.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
56 Posts
Discussion Starter #17
I have my high cam AFR's dialed in pretty good, but am still playing with the low cam AFR's / AFM Flow... These "normal table values" are really only the suggested values @ WOT (>70% throttle) right? So at WOT map pressures from -26 to -4.3 should never occur?

Low cam normal fuel.png
When loading a datalog the AFR's that display on the "WOT Lambda adjustment Low table" should all be near stoich to the left of -4.3 because these areas would be closed loop (< 70% TPS) at these map pressures right? These are here because there are no High and Low Fuel Tables like on a MAP based tune.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
53 Posts
At first I was thinking you weren't seeing the slider under the AFM flow values, and it was hidden behind your xy graph and couldn't see it... You have an ILX? When I try to open a new ILX calibration I see what your talking about "voltage" is spelled wrong when in the ILX calibration where it is not under a civic calibration. But also the ILX voltage indexes top out at 2.56 volts.
View attachment 204250
Im not sure if you can run a Civic Calibration on an ILX...? Wonder if the ILX would let you upload a Civic Calibration.In either case Civic or ILX the AFM Flow tables have 64 columns, the voltages indexes are just different. This is how you fix it! Start a new 2012+ CIVIC stock equivelant Calibration. Save it somewhere. Then go back into your ILX calibration and open up the AFM Flow table. Right click on the table and then click on "Import from Calibration" Find the 2012+ CIVIC stock equivelant Calibration you saved. It will then ask you "This calibraton is a different ECU type. Do you still wish to import this tabe?" Click YES. Then it says "Load Table Index as well?" And click YES! You will then have the Index voltages and flow from the civic calibration and you can tune them from there.
After I followed your procedure I tried the calibration and the car just starts and stalls. Seems like there is something different between the ILX and Si.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
53 Posts
Read the tuning guide on Flashpro help. FlashPro Help Your first step is to tune the AFM Flow table so that your Mean Short term fuel trims are within 1%. The computer will then (in closed loop) calculate the fuel needed to achieve a stoich air fuel ratio (14.7:1) based on the amout of air in (g/s) passing the MAF sensor. After looking at some of my datalogs I was running good in closed loop, but in open loop WOT I was running much richer than the commanded 12.46:1 AFR. What I found was that in tuning the AFM flow values in closed loop your dealing with between 1v-3.4v from the MAF sensor. BUT In open loop WOT the voltage was between 3.1v-3.9v. You have to adjust your AFM Flow values in the upper range so that you are achieving the commanded air fuel ratio. Adding more volume of air (g/s on your AFM Flow table) will command more fuel, Decreasing the volume of air will do the opposite and will command less fuel leaning your your actual AFR. Your goal in open loop is for your actual air fuel ratios to be the same as the commanded ratios in the lambda tables. Then and only then should you adjust the commanded lambda values to achieve the most power.
The new Flashpro version 1.9.0.0 solved the ILX AFM problem. Thanks for the info, made it easy to understand. MAF tuning takes much less time.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
53 Posts
Read the tuning guide on Flashpro help. FlashPro Help Your first step is to tune the AFM Flow table so that your Mean Short term fuel trims are within 1%. The computer will then (in closed loop) calculate the fuel needed to achieve a stoich air fuel ratio (14.7:1) based on the amout of air in (g/s) passing the MAF sensor. After looking at some of my datalogs I was running good in closed loop, but in open loop WOT I was running much richer than the commanded 12.46:1 AFR. What I found was that in tuning the AFM flow values in closed loop your dealing with between 1v-3.4v from the MAF sensor. BUT In open loop WOT the voltage was between 3.1v-3.9v. You have to adjust your AFM Flow values in the upper range so that you are achieving the commanded air fuel ratio. Adding more volume of air (g/s on your AFM Flow table) will command more fuel, Decreasing the volume of air will do the opposite and will command less fuel leaning your your actual AFR. Your goal in open loop is for your actual air fuel ratios to be the same as the commanded ratios in the lambda tables. Then and only then should you adjust the commanded lambda values to achieve the most power.
Is it me or does closed loop and WOT overlap? If Closed loop runs from 1v-3.4v and WOT is 3.1-3.9v there is overlap between 3.1-3.4v. Am I thinking about this incorrectly?
 
1 - 20 of 22 Posts
Top